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1 And I think that as far as my clients are con -
cerned, they would be willing to do something to help
Mr. Taylor so that he wouldnt t suffer a loss as a result
of not continuing to develop and improve his property,
And I earnestly hope, gentlemen, that you will see fit
under the circumstances to protect your home owners here
and those owning residential property and sustain your
Planning Commission, who have already made their decision
and against whose decision this subpoena is taken.
MAYOR SELBY: Thank you, sir.
Is there anybody else who wishes to speak at
this time?
MR. LEROY WESTOVER: I reside at 415 Eucalyptus
Street, El Segundo,
Mr. Mayor and Gentlemen: I own the property
adjoining Mr. Taylor. I feel that Mr. Taylor has a bad
deal and I feel that maybe I have a bad deal. I feel that
he is there and he has been a good neighbor. While I
don't think Mr. Taylor realizes the situation of mine, I
am a shift man, I sleep whenever I can. And just what
the gentleman meant when he said that they only worked
there one or two or three days a week, I don't know; but
It would seem to me like they are there six days a week.
However, that I don't want to enter as a com-
plaint. But I do like to enter as a complaint that if we
give Mr. Taylor a right to enlarge his business, undoub to
DAVID ETTLESON, OFFICIAL REPORTER, LOS ANGELES 13 • MICHIGAN 3548
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L that will mean more men, that will mean more noise, and
that will depreciate our property. And I would like for
Mr. Taylor to realize this one fact: if I should want to
sell my property today, because of his building, why, I
would have to take a loss for my property, where I wouldnt
if there were a dwelling house or houses on his lots.
I want to continue to be a good neighbor to Mr.
Taylor, However, Mr. Taylor has -- and I have never had
any business and I donst think any of the neighbors have
ever been able to do any business with Mr. Taylor -- I
think most of his business is outside. So, as far as his
business is concerned, it is of no value whatsoever to the
neighborhood and especially to myself.
So I don1t feel that I could support a variance
in the ordinance in granting him permission to enlarge his
business, because I certainly think that that will mean
more worl=en and it will certainly depreciate the property
and make it a worse deal than what we have now.
MAYOR SELBY: Thank you. Anybody else?
MRS. GEORGE LAKE: My husband couldn't be here
and he wants to register a complaint against granting him
further rights to enlarge, because we do have property
there and we intend to build a house there, and we feel
that it would depreciate our property very much to have
that business any more than it is. Why, right now we feel
like it has already depreciated our property.
DAVID ETTLESON, OFFICIAL REPORTER, LOS ANGELES 13 - MICHIGAN 3548
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1 MR. WOODWORTH: Where is -your property?
2 MRS. LAKE: Lots 26 and 27 in Block 61,
3 �. WOODWORTH: Do you live at that address?
4 MRS, LAKE: Not we do not,
5 MR. WOODWORTH: You are ust
j property owners of
5 those two lots?
MRS. LAKE: Yes,
MR- WOODWORTH: How far away is that removed from
' Mr. Taylor's place?
MRS. LAKE: There are four properties between us,
I would like to make a correction. We are in Block 60,
MAYOR SELBY: Thank you. Anybody else?
MR. ROBERT BREWBAKER: I live at 414 Standard
Street in El Segundo. I am one of the veterans that bought
directly behind Mr. Taylor's property, and in buying there#
I bought from a contractor that received his materials to
build those buildings by special permission from either the
Government or someone under the Government, I don1t exactly
remember the proper party. But anyway, he had to receive
special permission to get the lumber to buy for veterans
and veterans only,
.On that point there, I wish to point out that I
didn't buy with my eyes shut or build with my eyes wide
open, knowing that there was a plumbing shop there. I
bought that property because there were no homes or places
to rent at that time.
DAVID ETTLESON, OFFICIAL REPORTER, LOS ANGELES 13 • MICHIGAN 3548
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1 I am also a shift man, as Mr. Westover is also.
2 I sleep when I can. And as for the number of days the
3 plumbing shop operates, I am sure it works more than just
4 two or three or four days a week.
5 I bought that property under a handicap. The
5 owner of the plumbing shop also bought it at a time when
I believe that he had a pretty good selection of property
to buy. He bought in a zone where there were already resi-
dential buildings. And the comparison of his buy and my
own, I feel that my buy was certainly more essential than
his at that time. Without this home, I would be pretty
much in the background. Without his addition to his build-
ing, I believe he would survive.
I believe that is all. Thank you.
MAYOR SELBY: Thank you. Anybody else?
MR. ROBERT E. BROCE: I live at 429 North Euca-
lyptus Street. I guess I was about the first one to move
in that block there, and I know that it was laid out for a
residential district, and I would like to keep it a resi-
dential district. I feel that any business of any kind
has no business in a residential zone. That is all I want
to say about it.
MAYOR SELBY: May I ask how close you are to
Mr. Taylors establishment? How far away are you from it?
TOR. BROCE: They have it mentioned that I was the.
only resident within 200 feet, and that is the one they
DAVID ETTLESON• OFFICIAL REPORTER, Loa ANGELES 13 - MICHIGAN 3548
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1 have reference to, so I guess I am within 200 feet of his
2 place.
s MAYOR SELBY: Thank you. Anybody else?
4 MR. F. E. MACK: I reside at 431 Eucalyptus
5 Street, E1 Segundo. I feel the same as the rest of them
6 feel about starting a plumbing shop or any other place of
7 business in that neighborhood. As Mr. Broce said, he was
3 the first one there, and mine was the second house in then
And it seems to me that everybody who has moved in there
didn't want to have that plumbing shop, but they couldn't
help it; he started the shop before the zoning, and as it
has been brought out, any industrial business like that
would put a blight on a residential section. Therefore,
I am against any further additions to Mr. Taylor's estab-
lishment .
MAYOR SELBY: Mack, how far away are you from
Mr. Taylor's place of business?
MR. MACK: Mr. Broce said he was about 200 feet,
and I am right next door to him.
MAYOR SELBY: Thank you. Anybody else?
MR. ROBERT C. SYRACUSE: I live at 406 Standard
Street. When I got out of the service, I came into this
town and married an E1 Segundo girl. We lived in a small
apartment for about a year and a half, just one room.
I was very lucky to get that home there under the G. I•
bill. And we have a child, and we think it is a very nice
DAVID ETTLESON, OFFICIAL REPORTER, LOS ANGELES 13 - MICHIGAN 354E
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1 district for a child, a nice residential district. The
Z child is growing up, and I wouldn't want to try to have t
3 child molested in any way whatsoever b having ng any indus-
trial business there.
' As far as Mr. Taylor's business is concerned as
it stands there today, it probably would be okay with me,
but as far as adding anything on to it, I don't agree
with that. Adding on to that building and just having it
expand, would mean more men, more equipment, more noise;
and I am also subject for shift work, as I work here at
Standard. And we are war veterans and we are trying to
build up our property and make it look something like a
residential district, and we want to keep it that way.
MAYOR SELBY: May I ask just where you are
locat ed?
AM. SYRACUSE: In the 15 - 16 block.
MAYOR SELBY: That is in back of Mr. Taylor's
place to the west?
TI'S. SYRACUSE: That is right.
MAYOR SELBY: Thank you. Is there anyone else?
MR. ED RIME: I reside at 410 Standard Street,
E1 Segundo. I have the same opinion that Mr. Brewbaker
gave: that I didntt buy there with the foresight tot hat
being built up, and I was in the same predicament: I came
back from the service and I had to have a place to live.
I had three kids myself and we had to get out; we had no
DAVID ErrLESON. OFFICIAL REPORTER, LOS ANGELES 13 . MICHIGAN 3848
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1 choice, and I believe that the addition would be detri-
2 mental to the neighborhood.
3 MAYOR SELBY: You live rather close to Mr. Brew -
4 baker, do you not?
5 rte. RDIE: Yes, right next door to him.
6 MAYOR SELBY: Thank you. Does anybody else wish
7 to testify against Mr. Taylor's appeal?
8 MRS. ROBERT BREViBAKER : Ab out the only thing I
9 would like to say is that I will back my husband on it.
And I feel that if we grant this one change in the building
it will expand his business, and, after all, we cannot
expand our houses. And then there will be another change
in a few more years, so why should we grant this change?
Because there will come a time when we won't be able to
sell our homes at all for, after all, if we do sell, we
want to make a profit.
MAYOR SELBY: Thank you. Anybody else? (Pause)
If not, we will go back and let Mr. Taylor's representative
have a chance for rebuttal.
IdR. RICHARDS: May I ask whether we will have a
chance to say anything further?
MAYOR SELBY: Yes, you will have one more chance
after Mr. Jobe finishes.
MR. JOBE: I think there is quite a great deal
of misunderstanding concerning this matter of expansion,
and I think it was very ably demonstrated by this lady when
DAVID ETTLESON, OFFICIAL REPORTER, Los ANGELES 13 - MICHIGAN 3548
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1 she stated that she thought they would not be able to
Z expand their homes while Mr. Taylor could do so to his
3 place. The reverse is absolutely the truth because they
4 have single dwellings in a single dwelling zone and, as
such, they can add all they want, and they have conforming
use, and their addition, therefore, would conform to the
zoning. Mr. Taylor is in a different category because he
has a nonconforming use and, as such, he is not allowed to
expand automatically unless he gets permission from the
City Council.
This also brings up the point of the property
rights of Mr. Taylor. He was in before the zoning was fixe
for the purpose of operating his plumbing business thereon.
But with the zoning he was zoned more or less into oblivion
He has his use there and may continue, but he can1t expand,
whereas other people, if they want to make an addition to
their dwellings or any improvements, are allowed to do that
They merely conform. It is merely a circumstance that the
property is so zoned that he is now tied hand and foot and
cantt make expansions whereas others can because they came
in with dwellings and conform to the zoning, and they can
make any expansion they desire.
Another point brought up was that this addition
would fix the use more firmly on the property and would
,change the character of the district. Well, as I stated
before, the character of this property is already establish 4d
DAVID ETTLESON, OFFICIAL REPORTER, LOS ANGELES 13 • MICHIGAN 3548
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1 whether its size is as it is now or whether it is twice as
2 large; it is still characterized as a business and as a
3 plumbing shop.
4 And in the matter of selling your property, if
5 some.one wants to come out there and look at a piece of
6 property for sale, it isn't going to make any difference
7 whether that shop is 25 x 50 feet or 25 x 100 feet in size.
8 _Tt is still a nonconforming use in that neighborhood.
9 Incidentally, the present building covers less than 10 per
D cent of the site, and with the addition, there would still
1 be less than 20 per cent coverage of the site.
' As my friend Mr. Richards has stated here -- he
is a very able attorney in Los Angeles -- he thinks that
someone has to be hurt and that perhaps it would be better
if Mr. Taylor were hurt than the majority of the people
around there. Well, I think that is absolutely right, be-
cause we should consider the benefit of the greater as con-
trasted to the lesser. But as I stated in my original
statement here this evening, sometimes an addition to a
nonconforming building is not good; nevertheless, in the
City of Los Angeles, where we are processing hundreds of
these things every Year., the find that we don't always deny
them. Because there are sometimes circumstances which
would justify the addition, and it would make it better for
the neighborhood if the addition were permitted rather than
if it w erenIt. Because we base this consideration on the
VFFICIAL REPORTER, LOS ANGELES 13 • MICHIGAN 3548
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1 fact that ii by allow the addition i1r will improve th.
2 operations or tat: effects on the neighborhooa, then that
s is justified*, And as I stated before, if Mr. Taylor is
4 given permission to make his addition, he is willing to
s move that fence back to the established setback line where
6 it now projects all the way out to the front lot line,
7 and he is willing to keep the place in good shape and he
B will continue to operate there.
But as I likewise said before, if he cannot get
his addition and finds that he cannot continue to operate
there because of the limitations, he is entitled to sell
or lease his property -- and I think everyone should under-
stand that under the zoning law that property is non-
conforming as a plumbing contractor's headquarters. Now,
he does make a very restricted use of the property, and
if he cannot continue, he could lease or sell that propert
to another plumbing contractor who might use it more
intensively. Or, again, the zoning law provides that sine
_the building itself is nonconforming, it can be used for
any other use in the same category, which is the M -1 cate-
gory. And if Mr. Taylor is forced to leave, it might re-
sult in some other use coming in there which would be far
more detrimental to the neighborhood than Mr. Taylor's
business is.
As some of the people have stated, they believe
that Mr. Taylor works there much more than two or three
DAVID ETTLESON. OFFICIAL REPORTER, LOS ANGELES 13 - MICHIGAN 3548
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days a week. But will you get up, Mr. Taylor, and explala
just how you operate your enterprise?
MR. NATHANIEL M. TAYLOR: I am there every day
in the afternoon but I am not there every day all day long
I might be there two or three days a week. But I am not
there every day in the shop working every day in the week.
MR. JOBE: In other words, you call there and
go in and out?
MR. TAYLOR: We come in and out but we are not
there every day six days a week all day long by no means.
MR. JOBE: All right. And then there is Mr.
Westover, who is the next -door neighbor. Originally, when
this application came up before the City Planning Com-
mission, he had signed in favor of it and stated that he
preferred that sort of a use there to a neighbor because
it was less bothersome to him. But he now finds that it
is more detrimental than if it were to be used for resi-
dential purposes.
And he also claims that the addition would mean
more men and more noise. Well, that is not so. The only
purpose of this addition is to get some of the storage
inside the building; for instance, the fixtures. Now, at
the present time Mr. Taylor doesn't have the room to store
his fixtures inside the building, which he would like to
do very much, and the new addition is to be used princi-
pally for that purpose. One of the other purposes is to
DAVID ETTLESON, OFFICIAL REPORTER, LOS ANGELES 13 • MICHIGAN 3548
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1 give Mr. Taylor some office space. At the
present time
2 he has a little desk space for just a desk and a chair and
3 he is right next to where the men work when they are threw
4 ing pipe, and it isn't good that way. And he would like
5 to arrange the building so that he would have a nice little
6 private office there and thus separate himself from the
7 work.
s As Mr. Westover, his next -door neighbor said, if
he had to sell, he would probably take a loss. But I can'
see where increasing the size of this building would make
him take any more loss than trying to sell it on the same
basis at which it exists now. Because it is still a non-
conforming use there, whether it is the size it is now or
whether it is enlarged somewhat, and that is what a pros-
pective buyer would look at. He might say, "Well, there
is a plumbing establishment there, and I don't like it."
Whether it is the size it is now or twice as large, that
isn t t going to make any change in the status of the
property.
One of the other witnesses brought into the testa
mony the question of his being an ex -G.I. I would like to
state here that Mr. Taylor has two partners who are his
sons, and they are both former G:I.'s, so we can't get off
the track and consider this strictly from a G:I.'s stand-
point, because we have G.I.s on one side and G.I.s on the
other and we are not getting anywhere.
DAVID ETTLESON, OFFICIAL REPORTER, LOS ANGELES 13 - MICHIGAN 3548 -
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1 I think that this addition Would result in bet -
2 tering conditions in the neighborhood because of the re-
3 location of the fence, confining the operations entirely
4 within the building, whereas some of them now are per -
5 formed in the open. And in addition to that, the storage
6 of the materials, in so far as fixtures are concerned,
7 could be confined within the building, whereas they are
8 in the yard now, and under this plan Mr. Taylor would
9 merely storage pipe there. Incidentally, his storage is
0 not great there because most of his material is delivered
1 on the job and he only needs a limited amount of storage
' on this property.
` As far as the zoning law is concerned, I would
like to draw attention to the fact that Mr. Taylor in his
particular business doesn't require much storage. But,
for instance, if he were forced to convert this property
to some other contractor, we might have a different pic-
ture entirely. Because where you have the open use of
ground, it has been found impossible to regulate the height
of the storage. And Mr. Taylor would keep his storage as
he always has, down well below the level of a six -foot
fence. But we have no assurance in case of another occu-
pancy of this property that that storage would remain low.
In fact, they could go up ten or fifteen feet and nothing
could be done about it.
That is why I still maintain that the granting
-�•••� �. �L.GDVIY OFFICIAL REPORTER, LOS ANGELES 13 . MICHIGAN 3548
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of this variance has its good features, and it will not
more firmly establish the use of the property because it
is already firmly established. He can operate there, as
I said, for an indefinite period of time in accordance wi
the provisions in the zoning ordinance. There is a pro-
vision in the zoning ordinance that says that nonconformL
buildings may continue to operate indefinitely, except
that there is a provision that sometime or other the City
Council will fix the time which will limit the occupancy
of these buildings. But in so far as I know, no action
has been taken on that.
And when this time limit is established, it has
to be done on the basis of amortizing the investment. And
the minimum rate of amortization is 2 -1/2 per cent. Well,
at 2 -1/2 per cent, that would take 40 years to get rid of
this use. If it were, say, double -- in other words, 5
per cent -- it would take 20 years to get rid of this use.
Then that period would only start after the Council had
taken the necessary action requiring that nonconforming
buildings or uses be terminated.
In the City of Los Angeles they have a new pro-
vision in their zoning ordinance which they adopted in
1946 along the same lines, and the minimum period for
retiring nonconforming uses is 20 years and running up to
40 years, depending on the type of construction of the
building. But this feature is being adopted generally
—• •�..ov�., W—fiGIAL KEPORTER, LOS ANGELES 18 . MICHIGAN 3848
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